JCNA Judging FAQ

JCNA Judging FAQ

This is a great thread on JCNA judging standards.
From: Saj6780@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 22:49:33 -0400 (EDT)
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: JCNA Driven
I am contemplating entering my E in a concours someday. Where do I get a copy of the JCNA driven category requirements? I want to make sure that all the repairs I make are in accordance with the requirements.
Thanks in advance.
Steve
69 XKE OTS
Saint Louis, MO

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:50:33 -0400
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
From: Chip Weems
Subject: Re: JCNA Driven

At 10:49 PM -0400 4/24/97, Saj6780@aol.com wrote: >I am contemplating entering my E in a concours someday. Where do I get a >copy of the JCNA driven category requirements? I want to make sure that all >the repairs I make are in accordance with the requirements. > >Thanks in advance. > >Steve >69 XKE OTS >Saint Louis, MO The concours rules can be ordered from: Jaguar Clubs of North America 555 MacArthur Blvd. Mahwah, NJ 07430-2327 Phone: (201)818-8500 Fax: (201)818-0281
It's a common misconception that the JCNA judges have some manual that tells them all the details of the originality of the various models. All that the judges manual really states in this regard is that the cars should be authentic to the date of manufacture, and that the factory literature and documentation is the source to consult. It does list some specific point deductions for certain aspects of non-authenticity, such as having incorrect wheels, but it doesn't specify what is correct.
Authenticity judging depends almost entirely on the personal knowledge of the volunteers doing the judging. If they mess up through ignorance, then the owner can file a protest of the mistake with JCNA to have the points adjusted. Most judges will err on the side of letting something slip if they are unsure. But just as there are always people in any group who are sticklers for trivia, sometimes you will find a judge who errs in the other direction.
At the end of judging, you will be asked to sign off on all authenticity deductions -- this doesn't mean that you agree with them, merely that you acknowledge being shown the list. It isn't the time to start an argument with the judges, although if you happen to have the documentation on hand and can go straight to it, they may listen. At a big concours, they will be on a tight schedule (15 minutes per car) and won't want to stop to debate some finer point of authenticity. But, for example, if they took off points for a non-authentic color scheme and you happen to have the JDHT certificate showing that it was indeed ordered in BRG with red seats, then by all means bring it to their attention.
One other note about judging procedure -- never, ever say to a judge, "But you let that guy over there get away with a non-authentic framitz." Referring negatively to another car on the field results in automatic disqualification.
The main difference between the concours and driven categories is that the bonnet is left closed and the engine bay isn't judged in driven. Thus, you can do anything under the bonnet that you want (except put in a non-Jaguar engine) as long as the changes aren't visible externally. Otherwise, the car should be repaired with authentic parts. The Jaguar E-Type Spare Parts Manual is the first source of reference, and there are other originality guides (such as the Haddock book) that are sold through bookstores or via mail order. Keep in mind, however, that in any dispute over authenticity, only official Jaguar documentation is accepted as evidence (this includes JDHT certificates showing that a car was a special-order, if that is an issue).
Chip

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 08:21:13 -0700
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
From: SOS Technical Services
Subject: Re: JCNA Driven
Steve: As a JCNA Judge, I would suggest that you consider entering your car in the concours class 6 for your SII E, to enter it into the driven class would miss out on judging of the engine and boot. Only from having both of those sections judged will you really learn what is necessary and the corrections to make. Since I drive my car 5-6K miles a year and its never been restored, paint or chrome, I can count on holding down last place in my class but always get something fixed or improved each year, until you spend a ton of $s on a complete restoration, its hard to compete with some of the trailer queens that seldom get the feel of the open road, it may be nice to have a 99 point car but is that what Sir William would really want of His cars? Enjoy the show and learn. Some cars I have judged are restored better than the day they left the factory. Rules for JCNA concours can be received from your local club and or JCNA in New Jersey.
Mike Goodwin
'68 OTS in AZ
At 10:49 PM 4/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I am contemplating entering my E in a concours someday. Where do I get a >copy of the JCNA driven category requirements? I want to make sure that all >the repairs I make are in accordance with the requirements. > >Thanks in advance. > >Steve >69 XKE OTS >Saint Louis, MO

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 09:45:04 PDT
From: LLoyd <3030P@VM1.CC.NPS.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: JCNA Driven
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com

Thanks Chip. Even in concours you can't go around making yourself look good by making others look bad. Just like real life.
LLoyd - and my dad can beat your dad... - ;-)

Date: 25 Apr 1997 13:04 EDT
Sender: "Mark Roberts"
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
From: "Mark Roberts"
Subject: Re: JCNA Driven
Being head honcho/slave, read judge, in our concours this year, I agree 98% with what Chip said. Everything he said is right on the mark, except that there actually is a guide for the correct tyres to be used, it's in the back of the JCNA judging manual, and that in addition to having the bonnet shut, the boot is also shut, so things like missing spare wheel, or different spare from the other four tyres, and missing tools, if there were any, will not affect the scoring of the car.
The intent of the Driven Class is to get the cars that actually are driven, with all their "improvements" under the bonnet to make them more reliable....a Jaguar, unreliable...:-) as everyday, or weekend drivers, out to the shows, without having them compete against possible professionally restored trailered cars. The real driven cars usually cannot compete with the top of the line concours cars, and JCNA eventually realized this and created the Driven Class. So if you are interested in entering your car in the JCNA Driven Class, polish it up, clean out the passenger compartment, and make sure the lights, horns, wipers, and turn signals work, and come on out and have some fun and enjoy the other cars and people.
Okay, okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.....

Regards, Mark Roberts Phone: (613) 763-2924 Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA Fax: (613) 763-3970 1988 VDP - SIII V12 email: markdr@nortel.ca 1963 3.8L E-Type Coupe - 16 years into a 3 year project

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 11:04:48 -0700
Reply-To: f8driver@pacbell.net
To: xke-lovers@azstarnet.com
Subject: JCNA Driven
Steve:
You need a copy of the newly revised JCNA Judges' Manual to understand the judging criteria. The book contains few specifics on any particular model Jaguar and, as usual, all entrants are subject to the judge's strengths and weaknesses.
A book may also be available to you through the St. Louis Jaguar Club, "Jaguar Association of Greater St. Louis". Recent officers were Ken McDade, 616-235-3036; or Julie Bloomquist 614-727-9665. One or the other should be able to put you in touch with their Chief Judge.
Other responses regarding this subject and ever-present concours frustrations were well stated.
Dick Cavicke
Ch. Judge, San Diego Jaguar Club

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 15:45:30 -0400
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
From: Chip Weems
Subject: Re: JCNA Driven
Resent-Message-ID: <"mpZMO2.0.9N5.EnGOp"@aries>
At 1:04 PM -0400 4/25/97, Mark Roberts wrote:
>Being head honcho/slave, read judge, in our concours this year, >I agree 98% with what Chip said. Everything he said is right >on the mark, except that there actually is a guide for the >correct tyres to be used, it's in the back of the JCNA judging >manual,

Mark's indeed right about this -- and why they chose to single out this one item to list in the manual vs. all others is beyond me. It is also a very frustrating deduction for a judge to make because it invariably ends up being multiplied by a factor of four.
>and that in addition to having the bonnet shut, the >boot is also shut, so things like missing spare wheel, or different >spare from the other four tyres, and missing tools, if there >were any, will not affect the scoring of the car.

Ah, yes. Of course, if you are like me and have the FHC instead of the OTS, a closed boot lid is still an invitation to judge the cleanliness and wear in the boot area -- but at least what's under the spare wheel cover can't be seen. I always envy the OTS people, having seen what's in (or not in) some of those boots as they work on their cars prior to judging.
I might add that, in either driven or concours, judges cannot look underneath the car -- only at those parts that are visible from a standing position (of course, if I stand back, I can certainly see the underside of the boot area in an E-type). They also cannot climb into or even touch the car without the owner's permission (and they generally won't ask -- too much risk of scratching something).
Regarding the sign-off on authenticity deductions at the end -- if that is the only notification that the judge gives you, then if you have documentation that contradicts their position, you should feel free to make them wait while you dig it out. In most cases, judges only mark the things they are sure are non-authentic, or else they will ask you before the end (as in the case of non-standard colors). Thus, they don't expect to be challenged on the items on the list that they only tell you about at the end. But if you know they are wrong about something, show them the place in the factory literature that proves your point. What I meant in my earlier post was that this isn't the time to get into an argument that you don't have the documentation to support -- it won't win you back your points and just makes the experience unpleasant. You should instead go home and dig up the necessary reference, write a letter to JCNA and have your points restored belatedly.
In my mind, too much is made of authenticity. About the only place I've seen it make a difference and lead to serious heated discussions is when you've got a couple of professionally prepared cars into which people have invested a lot of money and the judges have to scrutinize them to decide who wins the concours. Then, somebody notices that one has a Phillips head screw where the other has a slotted screw and nobody can remember which it is supposed to be -- great way to ruin a perfectly fun afternoon...
Chip

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 21:06:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: aj400@osfn.rhilinet.gov (Bill Bilotti)
To: Xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
Subject: XKE judging
Hi,
This is a very interesting thread. I wonder, is it a deduction if the car is not painted the color that is listed one the heritage certificate? The statement about "correct to the year" makes me wonder if it is OK to paint it a color that was factory available in that model year, or must the color be as originally supplied. (Someday I'll be painting this thing...I hope)
BB
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:59:02 -0400
To: aj400@osfn.rhilinet.gov, Xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
From: Chip Weems
Subject: Re: XKE judging
At 9:06 PM -0400 4/25/97, Bill Bilotti wrote:

>Hi, >this is a very interesting thread. I wonder, is it a deduction if the car >is not painted the color that is listed one the heritage certificate? The >statement about "correct to the year" makes me wonder if it is OK to paint >it a color that was factory available in that model year, or must the color >be as originally supplied. (Someday I'll be painting this thing...I hope) >BB
No. It can be any color from the year it was made, but Jaguar had specific exterior/interior combinations that were standard each year (although, as with all Jaguar changes, the actual period in which any of these combinations was standard is pretty approximate). Thus, in most cases, judges won't challenge anything that was one of the standard combinations during roughly the period of manufacture.
The only case where it is important to have the car match its original color is if it was a special order color combination (Jaguar let you order virtually any combo) and you want to restore it that way. For example, my coupe was special-ordered in bronze and biscuit, and the only standard color that went with biscuit that year was Carmen Red. So if I put a biscuit interior back into it, those are the only two exterior color choices I have. If I choose Bronze, I have to keep a copy of the heritage certificate on hand if I show it.
Chip
From: Dphdcpe@aol.com
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:49:13 -0400 (EDT)
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: XKE judging
Chip and Bill,
I have knowledge that the top XK120 in the country two years ago, which garnered 100 pts. and was national champion overall belonged to Gary Eckenroth of Sinking Spring Pa. I saw the car before restoration and it was red. When it was shown, it was silver in color. This would show that color doesn't matter.
Terry Wagner
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:17:34 -0400
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
From: Chip Weems
Subject: Re: XKE judging

>Chip and Bill, > >I have knowledge that the top XK120 in the country two years ago, which >garnered 100 pts. and was national champion overall belonged to Gary >Eckenroth of Sinking Spring Pa. I saw the car before restoration and it was >red. When it was shown, it was silver in color. This would show that color dosn't matter. > >Terry Wagner
As long as it is one of the period color combinations, it's fine. Or if it is a documented special-order combination. But if somebody shows up with a purple metallic-flake paint job and pink leather seats, they'll get points taken off (assuming they aren't laughed off the field first). Although actually, there is a class for "modified" cars to accomodate things like creatively altered and race prepared Jaguars.
Chip
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:22:20 -0700
From: Steve Kemp
To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com
Subject: Re: New concours rules

Chip et al,
I reviewed the new manual along with several others in our group and don't recall any impending changes to the tire section. I vagualy recall that they did attempt to clarify the start and stop dates of particular tires (especially the 185-15s), so I made a few phone calls to the motherland for verfication. In the end, the last draft manual I saw read nearly identical to what is in there now (tires must be of the original configuration for that particular year).
A summary of my findings were as follows:
Conversation with Dunlop Tire technical support on June 28, 1996: Could not verify first instance of DOT approval for Dunlop SP41 radial tires. Told me to find earliest example of SP41 and reference the DOT number. The last three digits contain the week and year of manufacture, such that 253 would mean the 25th week of some year ending in 3 (e.g., 255 would likely be the 25th week of 1965 with regard to SP41s).
Next spoke with Chris Martin of Vintage Tire in the U.K. at 44-1-590-621261 on July 1, 1996. Chris said that a previous tire, C41, was available until the SP41 was introduced in around 1965. These were only used until 1967-68 when SP68 (SP Sport) were introduced. Chris referred me to Stewart Wiss (pronounced Wise), a long-standing employee at Dunlop Tire in the U.K. for further clarification.
Next spoke with Stewart Wiss of Dunlop of the U.K. at 44-1-213-063328. Stewart spoke as if he had worked at Dunlop during this period, but nonetheless was a Jaguar enthusiast who knew these issues well. According to Stewart, the first appearance of radials of SP41s on an E-Type was in England around 1965-66. They were not exported to the U.S. and in any event, probably couldn�t have been until about 1 year later. In any event, the U.S. market called for bias ply tires at the time, so it was unlikely they were even exported until 1967-68. The first U.S. appearance of SP41 tires was on Series 1 1/2 E-Types, around the end of 1967. This did not last long, only until introduction of the Series 2 E-Types, which received SP Sport VR rated tires (185VR15). The SP41 was only H rated.
The above conversations can be readily confirmed by referencing Road & Track test 4.2 JAGUAR XKE 2+2, published October 1966, in which Dunlop RS5 640:15 are given as the factory provided tire; and Motor�s article E-Type Extended, published March 1966, which discusses the new 2+2 equipped with SP41 radial tires.
This information is also concluded by Dr. Thomas Haddock and Philip Porter in their writings.
It is the opinion of this author that radial tires of 185:15 (H rated or better) only be accepted on Series 1 1/2 E-Types as standard and that radials on Series 1 E-Types only be accepted if the car is right hand drive and is later than 1964 and the car was brought in from outside the U.S. and has import papers to prove it, or the car was equipped from a U.S. dealer with SP 41s prior to Series 1 1/2 AND the owner has paperwork to prove it. The remaining concours rules on Series II and III suffice as is.
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