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To Main MENU Here are messages related to E-Type cooling systems from the xke-lovers (now e-type) mailing list. I will add more from time to time. I am always looking for volunteers to help compile and maintain these FAQ's. If you are interested, E-Mail me. Last updated July 23, 1997. |
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This is a very popular subject. Especially relating to adding aftermarket fans.
From: SUEUM@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:43:34 -0500 (EST) To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com Subject: Re: Paint & cooling fan I'm still asking for help finding a source for the proper shade of BRG to paint my car. No responses yet. Anyone? Also, I recently inspected my cooling fan. It does not seem that an electrically driven cooling fan that runs at a constant speed regardless of weather or driving conditions would be very efficient, I've been thinking about adding an electric thermostatically controlled fan in front of the radiator. I know it will bastardize my E a little, but I cannot imagine the stock fan being adequate for city driving during a hot Florida summer. Does anyone want to share their thoughts with me?
Frank Morse
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:40:07 -0500 To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com From: cdaly@passport.ca Subject: Re: Paint & cooling fan Frank, I had a terrible time with over-heating early last year, my first with this E. We installed a high-performance fan behind the radiator and discarded the thermostat control due fear of unreliability. I don't have a heater in my car (yet) so it was easy to run a wire from the fan to the heater switch. I painted the radiator and fan the same and it looks totally integrated. I just leave it on all the time (unless in late fall it's not needed) and have had zero problems with heating since. When I install a heater I will probably put a small toggle switch discreetly under the dash. Regards,
Charles Daly, Toronto, Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:42:15 -0600 (CST) To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com From: JISBELLJR@mail.utexas.edu Subject: Re: Paint & cooling fan If you are experiencing heating you should find out why instead of adding a fan. The car is designed so that it will not have heating problems if it is working properly (except for Charles who has a humongous engine in his and deserves the overheating problems). The urban myth that Jags overheat is just that, a myth. I live in Texas where our summer temps run to 100+. During rush hour the road temp can be over 120. My XKE has never overheated even in rush hour traffic and with the AC on full blast. My XJ6 runs well below the Green Arc all the time in those same conditions. If the gauge even gets up to the green arc I begin to worry about what is wrong with it. The XJS V12 HE runs with the needle below the N on the gauge. This has not always been the case. The XJ6 when I bought it ran with the needle on 115 for a year before I found out that GREEN does not mean "Good" in English cars. The XJS ran with the needle halfway between the N and the H before I fixed it. Both cars needed only correction of PO abuse. The V12 needed the distributor overhauled and the radiator cleaned out of all the "Stops Leaks" crap that plugged it as well as a new water pump. The XJ6 required the radiator cleaning. A radiator cleaning costs about $100 if you do the removal and replacement work. Putting in a new electric fan will run about the same and the work is equal so why not fix what is wrong rather than patch it? Eventually the "patch" will not be able to help and you will clean the radiator or replace the water pump anyway. JIM I. Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:10:38 -0800 (PST) From: hdabney@deltanet.com Subject: Re: Paint & **cooling fan** Note that setting it up so that a fan runs for awhile after shutting the car off is kinder to the bonnet paint, too! Hunt Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:43:48 -0800 From: jdart@erols.com Organization: Freddie Mac To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com Subject: Re: Paint & cooling fan SUEUM@aol.com wrote: I've been thinking about adding an electric thermostatically controlled fan in front of the radiator. I know it will bastardize my E a little, but I cannot imagine the stock fan being adequate for city driving during a hot Florida summer. Does anyone want to share their thoughts with me? Frank, My 68 ots has two fans, both behind the radiator. One is always on and the other is thermostatically controlled. You may be able to fit cowlings and fans from a 68 if you wanted to do a conversion but I think you will have difficulty with overheating in city driving no matter what you do. Mike O'Rourke has a 67 FHC which has a single fan on the back of the radiator but has had a second fan added to the front of the radiator. Maybe Mike can give you some details on that conversion.
John Dart
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:17:24 -0500 To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com From: cdaly@passport.ca Subject: Re: Paint & **cooling fan**
At 09:10 AM 12/03/97 -0800, you wrote:
Note that setting it up so that a fan runs for awhile after shutting the car
off is kinder to the bonnet paint, too!
Hunt, That's probably true. My old Audi did that. With an early E and no alternator I couldn't afford the chance of forgetting to turn it off, though! regards,
Charles Daly, Toronto, Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:10:08 -0700 To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com From: sostech@doitnow.com Subject: Re: Paint & cooling fan
Frank:
One more thing, do you have the foam radiator shaped piece that goes between the radiator and the bonnett? This item does restrict air over the radiator and redirects it through the radiator, I have one and it may help you.
Mike Goodwin
Date: 12 Mar 1997 16:52:20 -0600 From: alan_johnston@ed22qm.msfc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Paint & **cooling fan** To: "xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet." You can buy a nice aftermarket thermostat control that allows you to set the ON temperature, and an OFF temperature (actually you set a delta from the ON temp, anywhere from 0 - 20 degrees below the ON temp). The fan will continue to run after the engine is off until either the temperature reaches the OFF temp, or a timer expires (which you cannot control, but is only about 1 minute). I have one on my '65 corvette. I don't know if I'll put one on the Jag or not. I bought it at SUPERSHOPS for about $70. P.S. The PO on my Jag wired the electric fan to the hazard switch, so I can manually control the fan using that switch. I like the setup, and do not intend to change it. Alan From: dlowenst@mastermind-tech.com To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:13:27 +0000 Subject: Re: Cooling Fan & Overheating Hi gang - I might have overlooked something stupid, but I have to say I've had a significantly different experience than Jim with regard to the cooling system on my E. I did an extensive restoration on my '67 Series 1.5, and some follow-up work to address cooling problems after the restoration. After messing around with the usual incidentals (e.g., thermostats, radiator caps, wetting agents, etc.), two things ended up being essential to resolve my problems: Installation of an oversize radiator core and an auxiliary cooling fan. (Some of the following is from a previous post): The radiator can be recored oversize while maintaining the original radiator interface dimensions, so there are no clearance or support issues to deal with. It's also somewhat cheaper than buying a new one (I paid about $400). The guy who did mine (in the Reading, PA region) had lots of experience recoring E-type radiators (I'll be happy to supply contact info if needed). He re-painted all appropriate pieces properly as part of the job. I also have a supplemental high-powered electric cooling fan mounted on the radiator mesh shield inside the bonnet (i.e., not visible from outside the car unless you really look hard). The fan is controlled via an under-dash switch (mounted next to the hazard switch) which bypasses the ignition circuit. I think some folks use the Series II A/C fan (?) re-fitted for this purpose, but mine is significantly larger than those side by side fans. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find out where my mechanic found it, so I can't help others find a similar one right now. The combination of oversize radiator core and supplemental fan has totally eliminated my cooling problems and allows both summertime stop&go traffic as well as long distance high speed motoring. However, either one alone is not enough (I had the fan before I had the radiator recored, so I could test all scenarios). Without the fan, the car will overheat in extended stop & go traffic in the summer. Before the oversize core, the car would overheat during extended summer driving at above 80 mph. I keep the carburetors and timing adjusted pretty religiously, and I'm confident that the restoration left the motor and cooling system without any blockages. The only area I can think of which may have contributed to my problems which hasn't been addressed so far is ignition. I'm pretty sure my distributor is worn (motor pings under really hard acceleration, despite 94 octane and all tuning efforts to address the issue). I'm installing an electronic ignition unit in three weeks. Perhaps that will suddenly eliminate the need for the cooling fan in traffic, but I'll be shocked if it does. Also, I would note that the original Road & Track reader surveys for the E-type showed exceptionally high problem rates for the cooling system (relative to other cars of the era). This suggests to me that Jaguar didn't quite have it right, at least during the early years. P.S. It's probably silly, but I use the aux fan to cool everything down after I turn off the car also, for the sake of the bonnet paint. Just stirring the pot a little! Regards, Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:35:45 -0800 (PST) To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com From: hdabney@deltanet.com Subject: Re: Paint & **cooling fan** Charles- I haven't done it yet, but I plan to set mine up with a thermostat and a time-delay relay, so that I limit the run-time to, say, 10 minutes, and run until the under-bonnet (or header tank) temp is below some threshold, TBD. If I ever get this done, I'll report back. Hunt Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:54:19 -0500 To: xke-lovers@listserv.azstarnet.com From: cdaly@passport.ca Subject: Re: Paint & **cooling fan** Hunt, Thanks for the words. I'll reserve judgement until i hear from you but I kinda agree with Jim Isbell, the cars were made to "be that way" and I have had zero problems since installing the second fan on a switch. regards,
Charles Daly, Toronto, Canada
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:32:42 -0800 From: PKR@SLAC.Stanford.EDU Subject: cooling fan connection To: "xke-lovers@azstarnet.com" I performed a very simple modification to my fan circuit. The thermostat "Otter" switch is wired as per original, but the wire that comes up behind the dash to the fuses I have now moved onto a fuse that is not interrupted by the ignition switch. Previously the fan would turn off when the ignition was off, now it stays on until the engine is cool (up to 20 minutes sometimes). My only concerns were that I might one day flatten the battery or start popping fuses. Neither of these has occurred and its over a year since I made the change.
Cheers, Patrick
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:25:10 +0200 From: niels@niels.com To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Subject: Re: overheating I am getting the idea that every E-type is always overheating unless different radiators, fans etc. are installed. My '62 3.8 E has the original radiator and the original 2-blade fan (that is, until it lost one of its blades last sunday and so became a one-blade fan, which did not work too well...), and I have never experienced any overheating. Now Holland is not the hottest country, but it get pretty hot sometimes, and sitting in traffic jams is pretty common here. When driving, the engine runs at 70C, in traffic it rises slowly to about 90C, but I never noticed it going any higher. Also, I think the cooling systems were tested to provide enough cooling to the engine, so if they don't, I would try to locate the problem first (wrongly timed ignition, dirty radiator etc.) before just making more air blow through the radiator. I am just wondering, am I the only one NOT experiencing overheating on my E? Best,
Niels Van Iperen
From: dlowenst@mastermind-tech.com To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:52:44 +0000 Subject: Re: overheating Niels - You raise an interesting question as to why the overheating problem doesn't seem to be universal. I have a couple of comments: 1) Reports of problems with E-types overheating are not just anecdotal. If you refer back to the Road & Track long term test reports and customer satisfaction reports for E-types (there were a few), there were unusually high percentages of overheating problems reported. 2) I'm fairly certain that maintaining the car properly, with original-type components in good condition, may be necessary but not sufficient to prevent overheating (at least on some E-types). My car, for example, had a complete professional restoration by a skilled E-type specialist. This included rebuilding of the motor, cooling, fuel and ignition systems. I keep the car well tuned. Without the modifications I've done (oversize radiator core, aux cooling fan, primarily), it would run unacceptably hot. From the list and elsewhere, I know there are lots of us in this position. It is also interesting to note some changes that had no significant effect on my car's running temperature: change from twin Strombergs (installed by a PO) back to triple SUs (original equipment on my car); installation of electronic ignition; installation of correct bypass-style thermostat vs substitutes. 3) Perhaps older cars tended to have less cooling margin built-in, and we've simply grown accustomed to the oversized and reliable cooling systems in most modern cars. 4) Perhaps this issue is related to the 3.8 vs 4.2 motors? Did Jaguar upgrade the cooling system sufficiently when they moved to the larger engine? Do folks with older cars have fewer cooling problems? Regards, Dave Lowenstein Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:44 +0200 From: hoekemei@ps.msm.cern.ch To: e-type@jag-lovers.org, niels@niels.com Subject: Re: overheating No Niels, I have the same experience as you and the temps of my engine are the same as yours. The only thing one can say is that there is less reserve built in the E-type cooling system as in modern cars. After a proper restoration everything should be in "as new condition" and so you have no problems. Of course running with a one blade fan is expecting too much!! Frans. From: Thomas.Felts@alcoa.com To: "'e-type@jag-lovers.org'" Subject: RE: overheating Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:36:24 -0400 Guess I'll add my 2C's on the overheating issue. I have a new radiator core, correct timing and dwell ---actually a new engine-and the original fan. Mine doesn't overheat. Last week at the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix, I got stuck in some departing traffic in temp. of 85-90 degrees and the Jag temp went just below 90-never got to 90. This is a 66E. Maybe I'm just lucky. I can, however, remember years ago when driving another 66 E around Denver that I couldn't make it across town without having to stop and cool off. Then I didn't understand the value of good maintenance- ect. As a matter of fact, at that time I never checked the dashpot oil and I know I ran it dry many times. So, Niels, we have the only two E's that don't overheat! :-) tom From: lpratt@its.bldrdoc.gov Date: 7/22/97 Subject: Cooling Uprades As promised to several people on the list, here is what I am doing to try to improve the cooling on my E-Type. First a LITTLE history. I bought my 65 E-Type as a basket case, not the smartest thing I have done, but I wanted something to play with. In amongst all the parts was that silly two blade finger whacking fan, but no motor. I thought that odd, but off I went to Kats, a Denver Jag repair and parts house, new and used. I asked if they had any used fan motors. He gave me a bucket full of motors, saying they were in the same condition as mine, all burned out. But I had none, and now I knew why. The fan moved very little air, but the motor would burn out trying to do that. I knew I needed a better fan and motor. I did not want to spend the big bucks for an original rebuilt motor that would not do the job and would only burn out again. So off to an salvage yard. I picked a 16 inch 5 blade (2 inch wide blades) fan that fits nicely in the original location. It happens to be the same fan that was on my 86 LeSabre and is also on my 94 LeSabre. Must be a million of them out there from various GM cars. This is a two speed fan that operates through a 0.68 ohm resistor for slow speed. It will keep our 3.8L Buick cool in traffic with the AC on and the fan cycling off and on on slow speed. On high speed this fan really moves a large amount of air. I designed a bracket (dimensions on request) that securely mounts the fan in the original location. I long ago decided I did not want to mount the fan to the radiator, either as a pusher or puller, because I did not want the vibration on the radiator. If you really want to keep the car looking original but want additional cooling, you might want to consider a front mounted pusher as suggested by others. The fan can be controlled in a single speed mode by using the original Otter switch and a relay. (The fan draws about 15 amps on high speed). However I wanted to use it as a two speed fan and wanted to use the voltage at the point between the temp gauge and the temp sender to control the fan. The temp and fuel gauges operate on 10 volts from the 10 volt regulator, which does not supply a constant 10 volts but provides a time multiplexed voltage that is either full battery/alternator voltage or zero volts. The time average (RMS) of this on/off ratio should be 10 volts. This would really upset the comparator circuit so the 10 volt regulator was replaced with a 7810 three terminal regulator along with the necessary comparators and bias circuitry to control the on and off fan control signals. For example the fan turns on slow at 80 C and off at 75 C, high speed on at 85 C and back to slow at 80 C. These set points can be controlled by selection of resistor values. This is all admittedly quite complicated, but hey, I said I wanted something to play with. The system works exactly as designed on a bread board, but I admit it has not been installed in a operating vehicle yet. In a few weeks, maybe. But with nearly 40 years as an electrical engineer I am confident it will work. This is my solution to the heating problem, along with a new 4 row radiator. Cheers Lauren Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:40:00 -0700 To: e-type@jag-lovers.org From: zlozower@directnet.com Subject: Re: overheating Hi Jag Lovers I just wanted to add some more input about overheating that no one else has added I have a 64 e roadster which I totally rebuilt. There are a lot of other E types out there that have also had ground up restorations or freshly rebuilt engines. My engine only has about 6 thousand miles on it since the rebuild 7 years ago and is still not broken in (as far as I'm concerned). A fresh, rebuilt engine that is nice and tight that isn't broken in is definitely going to run hotter than an engine that has 20,000 miles or more on it.As the engine breaks in, there will be less friction between the moving parts which means less heat for the cooling system to deal with!!! I have a 16 " aux cooling fan, a fresh new radiator, red line watter wetter, 160 degree thermostat and my car will sometimes creep over 90 centigrade on the guage but still runs great!!! BTW, I was driving my wife's 96 Jeep grand cheerokee yesterday and noticed that the temperature guage stays at 210 degrees which for that vehicle is right in the middle of the temp guage. 90centigrade isn't even near 210 degrees!!!
Zloz
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:39:06 -0700 From: geo@mbari.org To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Subject: Re: overheating New vehicles like the Jeep are designed to run at higher operating temps for smog control. Can't compare the two vehicles. Overheating isn't until the coolant boils. From: noel.annett@deetya.gov.au To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Subject: RE: overheating Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:17:19 +1000 Tom & Neils and everyone reading the list I will complete the hat trick... I have owned my Series 1.5 2+2 for 18 years, regularly maintained and cooling system flushed annually. I has been flogged to its 5,000 RPM redline in motorkhanas and regularity runs in the middle of summer on many occasions and driven home afterwards with no sign of overheating. It normally sits on about 75-80 degrees F and rises to about 90 degrees F when driven hard (in temperatures of 30 degrees Celsius) ...sorry about the mixed measures but we have been brainwashed to think in Celsius out since the 1960s. It is lubricated with Mobil Super XHP (an organic oil) and runs a 9:1 compression engine. Being a 1968 car, mine has the old Series I bonnett (sorry, hood) with the small air intake opening (mouth) but has the advantage of the later twin electric fans and very efficient shrouding which became standard fare on the Series II cars. I have sat in Sydny traffic in the middle of summer with no overheating problems and the car is bog standard. (Mind you it has got bloody hot inside the cabin/cockpit, but that's another issue) But as others have observed, I know people in Jag clubs here in Australia who have experienced similar overheating difficulties to those outlined by many contributing to this discussion. Most (if not hampered by concours fever) have resorted to the supplementary cooling adjuncts referred to by many of the correspondents (especially getting rid of the two blade weed eater) - modern lightweight thermostatically controlled fans being a common approach. I know this does not help those experiencing problems, but it was starting to look like Mr Jaguar had stuffed up the design. I just wanted to bring a bit of positive perspective to the discussion.
Noel Annett
From: ffilangeri@juno.com To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:42:30 -0400 Subject: Re: overheating Hi Niels, Add another one to your list of Jags that don't overheat with original equipment (mostly). I have the original two blade fan and motor but the radiator is from a 4.2 litre E (I think). It was in the trunk when I bought the car and looked like it had been cleaned out and painted and the mounts were in the right place so in it went. That was in 1983! Car runs at 70C and will rise to 90c in traffic on a hot day but has never boiled over in 20k miles and that includes time trials at a racetrack on a 90F degree day and summertime hillclimb events. Don't know why, but overheating has just not been a problem. I am also using hi-lift cams and electronic ignition and distributor. Frank Filangeri From: Thomas7661@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:35:59 -0400 (EDT) To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Subject: overheating/cooling systems With all this talk about overheating I'm a little confused with what the ideal running temp. is. My 67 series 1 usually heats up to about 70c then after about 45 minutes of drive time climbs to 90c. Is this to high? what temp should we aim for? Any cooling experts out there? Thomas Jones From: llstory@coffey.com To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Subject: Re: overheating Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:47:36 -0600 That Denver car had two strikes against it. High altitude does bad things to cooling. It leans the car out (read hotter), and there is less air to push through the radiator. Almost every E that I know of in the Rocky Mtn. area, unless it has been modified somehow, seems to overheat if forced to run at slow speed in hot weather. We are all deep breathers here in the mountians, but it is hard to make a car gulp more air through the radiator without some help.
Larry
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:55:14 -0700 From: agm1819@idt.net To: e-type@jag-lovers.org Subject: Overheating Here in sunny southern CA I run a 50/50 mix of Prestone [for Aluminum and other metals] with a 4oz slug of water wetter. Thermostat is standard as is radiator with 0 # pressure cap on the core and 7# on the overflow. I do have a multiblade electric fan mounted to draw air in on the radiator. Temps. seem to run at the "r" in normal in the middle of the guage. It rises to the "l" after a long run and then slowing down into traffic. I flush the radiator every 2 years regardless of milage . No major problems after 50,000 miles and 17 years.
Allan
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