Jaguar Transmission Upgrades
This is a collection of threads relating to transmissions that seems to pop up regularly on the E-Type list.Subject:5/6 speed transmissions????
Date:Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:52:34 -0500 (CDT)
From:Mike O'Rourke wmor@ix.netcom.com
Does anyone have any experience with the 5 a/o 6 speed transmissions available for the Series 1 E-type? Although I totally love my car, at highway speed, it seems to plead for an extra high end gear or two.
Mike O'Rourke
'67 FHC
Subject: 5/6 speeders...
Date:Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:02:08 -0700
From:"pat harrington" patharr@gte.net
The Ford T-5 'box is adaptable to the E. Some mods will be necessary, however. XK's unlimited has the kit, or they can do it for you. T-5's are available at most salvage yards (with documented mileage) for about 500$. The gear lever placement is a little further back from what I've heard. My friends in the BMW clubs are constantly having troubles with the Getrags. One guy I know with an M-3 is on his 3rd tranny in 5 years. I have also heard talk around the industry about the unreliability of the Getrag......They're also expensive to repair/rebuild, or to replace....The 5&6 speeds available from GTJ are made by Richmond, and I've read they can handle 500 HP without problems. I'm unsure of the mods required to the car, however, and they are quite expensive also- around 3500$...An all synchro from a 4.2 will work on a 3.8 car, if smoother shifting is all that is desired, but a 4.2 bell housing, starter, and mounts are needed, and maybe the flywheel. A synchro unit from a 2+2 will not work on a SWB car, however, due to the longer tail shaft. Perhaps a drive shaft mod. could make it work. I have also heard of adapting O/D on to the E-type, does anyone have any info. on this? P.S. The Ford T-5 is from the Mustang...
Double clutching, and still crunching...
Pat H.
64FHC (with Moss 'Box)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:50:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Frank mfrank@acm.org
Subject: Dellow conversion for Supra 5-Speed
The issue of five speeds comes up from time to time. As my Supra moves
closer to retirement, the Dellow conversion tempts. For the newbies, this is
my post on the issue which was originally transmitted last year:
_______________________________________________________________________
Group:
I just received a letter from Dellow's in Revesby, AUS. These are the folks who do the conversions to Supra 5 speeds. The cost is $955A for the kit, and $575A-$675A for the transmission. The kit includes bell housing, clutch, pressure plate, rear cross member, speedometer cable, push rod, yoke, and clutch fork, etc. They will sell the kit only, allowing you to locally source a transmission. Looks like the only welding is to the prop shaft. They will ship worldwide.
They also supplied a fact sheet on the Supra transmissions. There are 4 gearing variations available:
W55 W57 W58 W59
1st 3.57 3.28 3.28 3.95
2nd 2.06 1.89 1.89 2.14
3rd 1.38 1.27 1.27 1.27
4th 1 1 1 1
5th .85 .86 .78 .85
There are four possible stick positions: 18", 19", 20 1/2" and 21", as
measured from the front of the box. They recommend the 18" box.
Dellow also supply a "Qik-Shifter" for $160A which reduces shifter throw by 50%.
I am considering this as a winter project.
FYI, contact information is:
Dellow Automotive Pty LTD
37 Daisy Street
Devesby, NSW 2212
PO Box 43 Revesby North 2212
(02) 7744419 fax: (02) 7744783
Once again, thanks to all on the list who have helped me run this down.
Mike Frank
1969 E-Type 2+2
From: vicarage
To: wmor@ix.netcom.com
Date: 07/11/97 09:48:09
Subject: Re: 5/6 speed transmissions
On 07/10/97 14:11:55 you wrote: > >Does anyone have any experience with the after-market 5 a/o 6 speed >transmissions marketed for the E-type. Although I totally love my car, >at highway speed, it seems to plead for an extra high end gear or two. > >Mike O'Rourke >'67 FHC >Mike .. we have been putting the Getrag and now the Vicarage VJT5 transmissions in E-types since 1988 .... This is a great way to extend the use of your car and prolong its life in the fast lane by substantially reducing your revs at speed.
You may look at my 67 e-type fhc here in Florida or one of our Getrags in AZ ... whichever is closer. These are professional installs and now in the case of the VJT5 the gear lever ( with "5 speed" ali billet ball) is exactly in the place of the original including the box surrounding the gaitor... ratios from 2.95 to 3.85 in first to .72 in top as you like.
The cost installed runs around $4k .. Lou's 6 speed is more applicable for the XJS rather than the e type and cost at least 2x as much.. kind regards
tony
VICARAGE JAGUAR............. Specialist Jaguar Restoration
Anthony Parkinson - Owner
USA/uk/Netherlands
Florida Tel 1 305 866 9511
fax 1 305 866 5738
Web Site: http://www.jagweb.com/vicarage Email: vicarage@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 17:15:18 -0700
From: JDUHIG@Raychem.com
Subject: Re: 5/6 speeders...
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Gentlemen,
Several questions have arisen in the last couple of days and I'd like to make a single reply to an number of them at one time.
Gearbox: The 62 OTS we've had for about 14 years was purchased with a 4.2 all synchro box, which has been great, nice change and my wife has no problem with it (I think she would have had difficulties with the Moss version). With the torque of the standard 3.8, there is surely no need for more than 4 gears. However, I would like a higher overall ratio as, with the increase in general speed limits here, it would be nice to cruise at lower revs. Thus, an overdrive would be beneficial but I will probably try to get a complete "diff. housing" from a wreckers in the UK, with the European ratio.
> > >J.D
From:vicarage@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:09:11 -0500 (CDT)
To: patharr@gte.net
Subject: Re: 5/6 speeds...
On 07/11/97 16:02:08 you wrote: >The Ford T-5 'box is adaptable to the E. Some mods will be >necessary, however. XK's unlimited has the kit, or they can >do it for you.Perhaps I could jump in with a few comments.... The T5 itself can be utilized as you suggest, however we build a brand new VJT5 with new input output shafts new gears and two different tail housings ( a shorter one for the 6 Cyl E ).... Requires the owner to have the Bell housing machined and provided with 4 mounting points, as well as a shortened prop...
>T-5's are available at most salvage yards >(with documented mileage) for about 500$. The gear lever >placement is a little further back from what I've heard.Yes, if you use a T5, but NO if you use our box.. Mine is in place in my car at exactly the same spot as original with a nice billet shifter with the 5 sped pattern on it.. impossible to tell from orig!
>My friends in the BMW clubs are constantly having troubles >with the Getrags. One guy I know with an M-3 is on his 3rd >tranny in 5 years.Wrong Getrags.... We always used the mod 265 out of the Jaguar saloons.. never a problem except when using undue and I mean really a lot of pressure jamming it into reverse.. can break the shaft. One Getrag we have been racing in the LLoyd E type for 4 years no change and constantly a winner...
>I have also heard talk around the industry >about the unreliability of the Getrag......They're also expensive >to repair/rebuild, or to replace....Wrong on unreliability.. problem is too tall first...
>The 5&6 speeds available from GTJ are made by >Richmond, and I've read they can handle 500 HP without problems.Lou's box is really a racing box so its horses for courses as we say... also the VJT5 is running a 550bhp XJ13 replica racer ( light car) without problems
>I'm unsure of the mods required to the car, however, and they >are quite expensive also- around 3500$...I think lou's 6 speed is about $8k installed.. best for the XJS but less appropriate for an E .... The VJT5 installs for around $4k ....and I do 0-60 in 5.5 ( 310 bhp)... topping out at 165 in my street car...
kind regards
tony>
VICARAGE JAGUAR............. Specialist Jaguar Restoration
Anthony Parkinson - Owner
USA/uk/Netherlands
Florida Tel 1 305 866 9511
fax 1 305 866 5738
Web Site: http://www.jagweb.com/vicarage Email: vicarage@ix.netcom.com
From:vicarage@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:48:29 -0500 (CDT)
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org
Cc: mfrank@acm.org
Subject: Dellow/Supra gearbox
I happen to see the communication of Mike Frank detailing the Dellow supra work and noticed that they were recommending the 18" stick position...
As the Mark II and the E-type require only 11 1/2 inches where does the stick actually come out? I would imagine it would be fine for XKs but it would appear to be too far back for other applications....
kind regards
tony
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:56:13 +1200
From: John McDonagh :MCDONAGJ@tui.lincoln.ac.nz
Subject: Re: Dellow/Supra gearbox
To: e-type@jag-lovers.org, e-type@jag-lovers.org
Cc: mfrank@acm.org
The Toyota box used in my Mk 2 has a number of different length bolt on gear lever extensions available depending on the original application. In my case I have got the shortest extension which is no extension at all - the gear lever goes straight into the selector rod.Its hard to describe but go to a junkyard and look at any old RWD Toyota Corona box and you will see what I mean. Unfortunately this is the hardest version of the box to find but it is not too difficult.
With this box the gear lever comes out about three inches further back than standard. For people converting autos this is often not a problem as you can cut the hole to suit and first gear in the standard position is often a "stretch" for tall people in any case.
If you have a manual and want the lever in the original position as I did you have two options. First and cheapest (my choice) it to weld a 3 inch long plate on to the original Toyota gear lever very close to the bottom end extending forward and cut off the rest of the lever. Then attach the jag lever to the front end of this plate. Crude, and it gives a slightly weird action to the gear lever but it has worked fine for me for 10 years.
The tidier option is to get an engineering place to alloy weld on the "socket" for the gear lever in any position you like - as long as it is within the length of the selector rod - and reposition the fitting on the selector rod to suit. This is a common mod here as it is necessary for other uses of the Toyota five speed (eg Landrover) and costs about NZ$100.
John McDonagh
Department of Accounting Finance and Property Studies
Lincoln University
Christchurch
New Zealand
Subject:The Shiftless Cat (Technical: Transmissions, 5-speed, flywheels)
Date:Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:35:06 -0400 (EDT)
From:Michael Frank mfrank@westnet.com
To:e-type@jag-lovers.org
My Cat is still awaiting a window at the resto shop, but we've made a few key decisions on what will happen once work begins.
The Opportunity
When last we met our heroes, they were stranded on a mountain top in Vermont, on the way to the Jaguar Biennial. The Cat's throw out bearing had somehow fouled the clutch fingers, resulting in a catastrophic drive train failure. Although the car has yet to be disassembled, we can be sure that clutch, flywheel, and transmission will need work. It is also possible that the fork is bent, but we shall see.
With the invaluable help of Gary Hagopian, concours chairman, my car was hauled to Stew Jones Restorations, in Winstead, CT. Stew Jones runs a very professional shop, and while he isn't cheap, his work is of the very highest caliber. He was very highly recommended by the JANE folks at the show. This is where the work will be done.
Why 5 speeds?
I have been kicking around the idea of a five speed upgrade for some time. I know that Jaguar had researched this possibility right from the outset, but was unable to work out the technology. Early E-Types probably didn't miss 5th gear too much, due to the high gearing of the Type I diffs (3.07 or 3.31). But with the 4.2, Jaguar dropped the rear axle to 3.54, to make the car more competitive for the street-light dragsters. This was accompanied by a switch to the Jaguar close ratio 4 speed. I find that this combination makes for quick starts, but uncomfortable cruising, particularly now that there are some roads where you can legally do 65MPH. It also limits top speed, which is no problem, since the Jag has more on top than I will ever use.
To drop the revs, two options are available: go to a higher axle ratio, or add an overdrive gear. Although more historically sensitive, higher axle ratios are not attractive, since off the line performance is still what counts here in the USA. It's also not where I am: I must rebuild my transmission, but my differential and rear axle can soldier on for a few more miles. So adding an overdrive gear looks like a technically superior choice. This way, I can have the rapid acceleration I enjoy today, plus quiet cruising, plus the ability to reach speeds I never expect to need. The question is how to do it without dramatically changing the nature of the car: in other words, I want to add a fifth speed in a way that Sir William might have approved of.
Transmission Choices
- ZF. I bet none of you had ever considered a ZF box for this swap. But
Jaguar did. Just after the E was introduced, Jaguar ran a number of tests on
a five speed ZF in the E. They concluded that while the box was good, it
produced too much gear chatter for a refined sportster. But they used it in
many of the well known racers of the day, including the factory lightweights
and low drag coupes.
I have a letter out to ZF, to see if they have something modern that would drop in. I will share the response, if I get one, with the list.
- Jaguar overdrive. It is possible to take the overdrive unit from a Mark X
and bolt it up to the Jaguar 4, but this requires modification of the
floor pan, which I was unwilling to do.
- Getrag. At one time, Jaguar offered Getrag 265's on Euro-spec XJ6's.
These are excellent transmissions, in spite of what you may have heard. They
are tough, fairly reliable, and modern in every sense. They are also
becoming impossible to locate. I know of three or four shops which offer
Getrag conversions, but this is one of the more expensive options. When you
look into it, you generally find that the shop has had one or two of these
on the shelf forever, awaiting a deep-pockets conversion. Once the current
supply is gone, I don't think these will be available again.
- Toyota. This was a tough one for me. My everyday car is an '88 Supra,
with the perfect W58 transmission. Unfortunately, it is still too nice to
break.
Let me back up a bit. The Toyota swap is facilitated by Geof Dellow, in New South Wales. He makes conversion bell housings which allow Toyota 5 speeds to bolt up to XK and V12 Jaguar engines. Knowing how good that Toyota shifter is, coupled with the low cost of the Dellow conversion kit, seemed to make this a natural choice. But the decision became difficult when I realized that Dellow built his kits for 'saloons' and XJS's. Using the most appropriate Toyota box with Dellow's "shifter forward" modification, the shifter would still be 2 inches too far back. Of course, I might be able to cobble up a linkage to bring it out in the right spot, but this would require a lot of experimenting, and remember that I am paying a commercial shop to do the work.
If you consider the Toyota option, remember that the 'best' fit is the W58, which was used on 1987-1992 non-turbo Supras. It is a very limited production box, which may be another reason to think twice. The good news is that once you are set up for a W58, there are many other Toyota boxes which could bolt up, if you can live with the gearing.
- Borg Warner T5 Worldclass. The BW T5WC is a high performance version of
the familiar BW T5. It is used in many cars, including Camaros, Firebirds,
and Mustangs, so parts availability is as good as it gets. Making this work
involves modifying the bell housing to accommodate the bolt pattern, and
making sundry changes to shifter location, input shafts, and gearing. If you
wanted a real cheap conversion, this could be the way to go, but be sure you
have access to a machine shop and welding equipment. Also be sure to start
with the correct transmission. This box comes in long tail and short tail
versions, which differ in length by 7", and the shifter location varies by
as much as ten inches! In some applications, the shifters are offset from
the vertical, just to add to the complication.
The power rating on the BW T5WC is about 300HP, making them just adequate for the application. These boxes have a poor reputation in ultra high performance applications, so do not go racing with a BW!
I toured the local junk yards, and I can report that most of the boxes I found were the long-tail versions. The only box I found with the correct stick position was from an '86 GMC Jimmy...I just can't sink that low!
- JT5. The JT5 is the BW T5WC, with all the appropriate changes. The short
tail version is used for SWB cars, while the long tail is available for
V12's. Several gearing options are available, some of which are perfect for
the application. By all accounts, this is as close to a bolt-up as it
gets..the shifter position is almost spot on to the original Jaguar 4!
The short tail version does not have room for a speedometer gear, so it is equipped with an electronic sensor. In this case, your speedometer head will need to be converted to electronic as part of the swap. I am told that the workings fit in your old speedometer, and there is no visible change. If you can use the long tail version, no speedo mods are required. The long tail may work in 2+2's (Charles...another reason to step up).
The JT5's are manufactured on a limited basis...current capacity is about 30 per year.
All in all, this is the best set up for me....the gearing is exactly what I want, the conversion is out of the box simple, repair parts are easy to find, and the manufacturer is still around. I will be going with this.
If you choose the JT5, be aware that the same box is available from several sources. While the box is the same in all cases, there are differences in the amount of preparation and set up done by the vendor, price, and the amount of customer service available. So shop around.
- GTJaguar 6 speed. I never really considered this seriously. The GT Jaguar
six speed is a close ratio racing-style transmission. Only sixth gear is
overdrive. I believe the box is built by Richmond Racing, and modified by GTJ
for a good fit. Too expensive for me.
- Tremec 3550. This is a very high performance transmission meant to
replace the BW T5 in racing applications. It is made in Mexico. I have not
researched this extensively, since it can accurately be described as exotic.
Available thru speed shops.
- Summary of transmission ratios:
1 2 3 4 5 BW JT5 WC 2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 0.80# BW JT5 WC 3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.73# Toyota W58 3.28 1.89 1.27 1.00 0.78 Toyota W55 3.57 2.06 1.38 1.00 0.85 Toyota W57 3.28 1.89 1.27 1.00 0.86 Toyota W59 3.95 2.14 1.27 1.00 0.85 Tremec 3550 3.27 1.98 1.34 1.00 0.68 Moss 4 3.37 1.86 1.28 1.00 - Jaguar Syncro 4 2.94 1.90 1.39 1.00 - Jaguar Syncro 4OD 2.94 1.90 1.39 1.00 0.80 ZF 5 Speed 2.93 1.97 1.45 1.17 1.00* Jaguar 4 (racing) 2.98 1.75 1.21 1.00 - + Jaguar 5 (racing) 2.82 2.14 1.66 1.27 1.00*+
#Several OD gearing options available, from .59 to .82
*The five's of that era were close ratio, but not overdrive transmissions.
+Prototype transmission used in various special Jaguar cars, early '60's - Important dimensions of the Syncro 4 speed:
Front to end of tail 12.25"
Front to transmission mount center 12.75"
Front to shifter center 12"
Front to end of input shaft 7"
Pilot bushing diameter .492
Flywheel and Clutch Choices.
I am also planning to take some pounds of in a very important place: the flywheel. For those who don't know, the flywheel is a ponderously heavy iron wheel on the end of the crankshaft. The clutch mechanism bolts up to it. This is a very good place to reduce weight, if you do it carefully.
The flywheel is there for two purposes. First, because it is so heavy, it provides inertia to overcome minor irregularities in engine performance,and to reduce vibration. In other words, the sheer mass of the flywheel will 'absorb' torsional variations, and give you the sensation of smooth running.
Second, the flywheel allows the clutch to 'slip' as it is engaged. Think of it this way. If the clutch immediately locked the engine (1500 rpm) to the drive train (0 rpm), one of two things would happen: either the wheels would instantly accelerate to engine speed, or the engine speed would drop to zero. Try to picture it. By providing some 'slip' the clutch allows the speed of engine and drive train to equalize before they are fully engaged. The flywheel's momentum helps the process by keeping the engine speed up as the clutch engages.
Given this, why would you lighten the flywheel? Simple. All the inertia that helps you in the two cases above, works against you when you want to accelerate. The engine must overcome the inertia of the flywheel before it can deliver full power. How expensive is this? The calculation of 'moment of inertia' is a first year calculus exercise. By cheating, and looking at the back of the book (GTJ's catalog, in this case), we find:
222.7 Horsepower needed to accelerate standard XK flywheel from 0-7000rpm in 1 sec
127.2 Horsepower needed to accelerate lightweight flywheel from 0-7000rpm in 1 sec
What this means is that more horsepower is available, faster, with a lightened flywheel. The engine doesn't produce more horsepower, but less of it is wasted spinning a dead weight.
Harmonic Balancer
When a cylinder fires, the piston produces a torsional force on the crankshaft. It also produces vibration. The vibrations produced by the running engine tend to concentrate at the ends of the crankshaft. At the rear, these are absorbed by the flywheel and drive train. At the front, it is the job of the harmonic balancer to damp the vibration. The balancer consists of a hub, surrounded by dense rubber, surrounded by a heavy metal ring.
Designing a harmonic balancer is almost a black art. The design is dependent on reciprocating weight, engine design and target peak rpm. Theory only accounts for part of the design. In a running engine, lubricants can cling unevenly to the motion work, causing unpredictable variations from expected results. The combination of the correct density rubber, and the right weight outer ring will either work or not.
There are a number of high performance balancers available for the XK engine. I am thinking that it would not be a bad idea to pop one on. Supposedly a good balancer will allow you to rev to 7000 rpm. Then again, I'm trying to get my revs down.....hmmmm.
My Plan
I will be installing a JT5...it seems to be the best choice available. I will retain the original transmission, should I ever change my mind.
I will also install an aluminum flywheel. But probably not an aluminum pressure plate. To compensate for what I expect will be extra wear on the clutch, I will be installing a heavy duty clutch. We are investigating the possibility of fitting a 10" Ford clutch.
I will probably replace the harmonic balancer with a high performance one. I'm still not sure about this one, but I don't think it can have anything but a positive effect.
Sources for Borg-Warner T5 WC Transmission
(Note: Borg-Warner has sold all tooling for the T5 WC to Tremec,
which has not yet announced production plans. All available
transmissions are shelf stock or used)
ABE Transmission and Gear Company
Outside CA (800) 821-0308
Inside CA (800)631-8756
Any Chevy Dealer (Camaro applications)
Any GMC Dealer (light truck applications)
Any Pontiac Dealer (Firebird applications)
Any Ford Dealer (Mustang applications)
Any Nissan Dealer (300Z applications)
Sources for Tremec 3350 Transmission
Dark Horse Performance
16617 SE 134th Renton, WA 98059
(206)227-7778 Fax (206) 277-3893
Forte's
1-617-647-1530
474 Moody St.
Waltham, MA.
ABE Transmission and Gear Company
Outside CA (800) 821-0308
Inside CA (800)631-8756
Sources for JT5 (modified Borg-Warner) Transmissions
Terry's Jaguar Parts
117 E. Smith Street
Benton IL. 62812
Phone (800)851-9438 Fax(618)438-2371
Vicarage
(305) 444-8759
(305) 443-6443
Predator Performance
12240 75th Street North
Largo, Florida 34643
(800) 329-0810 toll-free
(813) 539-0218 Florida
(813) 536-7243 FAX line
Medatronics Corporation
1717 Avenida Del Sol
Boca Raton, FL 33432
561 447 9594
Fax: 561 995 9234
Replacement parts can be ordered from any Borg-Warner source
Sources for Getrag Transmissions
Vicarage
(305) 444-8759
(305) 443-6443
Stew Jones Jaguar Restoration
199 E Lake St
Wistead, CT 06098
860 379-1534
860-379-2747 fax
Lister North America Ltd
918-665-0021
6565 E 40th St
Tulsa, OK 74145-4516
SNG Barratt
+44 (0)1746 765432
fax (+44) (0)1746 761144
The Heritage Building
Stourbridge Road
Bridgnorth, Shropshire. WV15 6AP
Sources for Richmond Racing Transmissions
Gran Turismo Jaguar
216 259-5656
4285 Main Street
Perry Village, OH 44081
Forte's
1-617-647-1530
474 Moody St.
Waltham, MA.
Sources for Toyota Tranmsission Kits
Dellow Automotive Pty LTD
37 Daisy Street
Revesby, NSW 2212
PO Box 43 Revesby North 2212
(02) 97744419 fax: (02) 97744783
Sources for Lightweight Flywheels and Clutches
Gran Turismo Jaguar
216 259-5656
4285 Main Street
Perry Village, OH 44081
Terry's Jaguar Parts
117 E. Smith Street
Benton IL. 62812
Phone (800)851-9438 Fax(618)438-2371
North Coast Exotics, Inc.
Earl Gibbs
216-651-5512
3159 West 68th St.
Cleveland, Oh. 44102
Tilton Engineering
25 Easy Street
PO Box 1787
Buellton, CA 93427
805 688-2353
805 688-2745 fax
Sources for Harmonic Dampers
Gran Turismo Jaguar
216 259-5656
4285 Main Street
Perry Village, OH 44081
Terry's Jaguar Parts
117 E. Smith Street
Benton IL. 62812
Phone (800)851-9438 Fax(618)438-2371
Mike Frank
1969 E-Type 2+2
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